Theresa Edmonson, Vice President of Spiritual Health for Providence St. Joseph Health, and Antonina Olszewski, Vice President of Spiritual Care for Mission Integration at Ascension, join the show to discuss the latest trends in technology and spiritual care. The two highlight the recent work of CHA’s Spiritual Care Advisory Council, explain why they feel hopeful about the future of AI in spiritual care settings, and reflect on how the foundresses and founders of Catholic health care can inspire us as we move boldly into the future.
Emerging technologies can help health care providers with a multitude of daily tasks from efficient data processing to helping doctors with bedside conversations. But can it be used in the realm of spiritual care and whole person care?
Theresa Edmonson, Vice President of Spiritual Health for Providence St. Joseph Health, and Antonina Olszewski, Vice President of Spiritual Care for Mission Integration at Ascension, join the show to discuss the latest trends in technology and spiritual care. The two highlight the recent work of CHA’s Spiritual Care Advisory Council, explain why they feel hopeful about the future of AI in spiritual care settings, and reflect on how the foundresses and founders of Catholic health care can inspire us as we move boldly into the future.
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Brian Reardon (00:07):
Welcome to Health Calls, the podcast of the Catholic Health Association of the United States. I'm your host, Brian Reardon, and joining me is our executive producer, Josh Matejka. Hi Josh.
Josh Matejka (00:17):
Hey Brian. How you doing?
Brian Reardon (00:18):
And in just a minute, we're going to have two guests joining us. We will have Theresa Vithayathil Edmondson, she's Vice President of Spiritual health for Providence St. Joseph Health, and we'll have Antonina Olszewski. She's vice president of Spiritual Care for Mission Integration and Ascension. They're going to be joining us in just a moment. But Josh, before we bring in Theresa and Antonina, this episode is on spiritual care and emerging technology, and this is, again, part of this season around looking at technology and humanity and how Catholic health care is delivered. Thought it'd be helpful just to maybe mention, we have a national digital media campaign that's been going on now for several months, really promoting the mission and the values of Catholic health care. And I think we are finding, both of us are working on that campaign. One of the messages that we see resonating with the public is our commitment to Whole Person Care. So my question to you as our director of Creative Services in your full-time job, other than helping produce these podcasts, is how does that tenet of our campaign, that Whole Person Care fit with the conversation for this episode?
Josh Matejka (01:21):
Well, I think when we were planning this season, we wanted to make sure that there was that through line between the work we're doing on a national level and the conversations we were having on this show, obviously. And like you said, one of the things that's really resonating with people is the Catholic health care commitment to Whole Person Care. Right? The easy way to think about health care when you're not involved in it is, oh, you're treating a sickness and you're getting the next person in. But Whole Person Care is much more than that. It's physical, it's mental, it's spiritual. But if we think back to the conversation we had with Dr. Vukov a few weeks ago, his big thing was Catholic health care and Catholic Theology has a lot to say about what it means to be human. And I think that's what kind of brings this conversation together, that if we're going to look at how to be a leader in the thought space of emerging technologies, spiritual care has to play a role in that. And that's why I'm really excited to have Antonina and Theresa here with us.
Brian Reardon (02:16):
Well, yeah, let's go ahead and bring them in now again, we have Theresa Vithayathil Edmondson, vice President of Spiritual health for Providence, St. Joseph Health, and then we have Antonina Olszewski. She's Vice President of Spiritual Care for Mission Integration with Ascension. Theresa and Antonina, thank you both for being with us. It's great to hear your voices.
Antonina Olszewski (02:34):
Thank you so much for having us here today.
Theresa Vithayathil Edmonson (02:36):
We're excited to be a part of this conversation.
Brian Reardon (02:38):
Yeah. And you both have served on CHA Spiritual Care Advisory Council. I thought that'd be a good place to start to really explain to our listeners what does that advisory council address in the discussions that you have?
Antonina Olszewski (02:50):
Theresa, go ahead. I'm going to let you jump in and then I'll just begin to talk over you as I so want do
Theresa Vithayathil Edmonson (02:56):
As we usually do with each other. So the SCAC has been looking at how to respond to the signs of the times. I think that's always been our guiding principle. And so recognizing that particularly in the area of spiritual health, we have responsibilities both as a clinical discipline but also as a part of Catholic health care, similar to what Josh just talked about in terms of the whole person care, making sure that we are being our best selves and providing the best care in this discipline. And so this SEAC has looked at staffing metrics, has looked at the ways that spiritual health services can be provided outside of traditionally seen acute settings such as a hospital. And so what's been really exciting is that work in terms of developing, using metrics, using data to say how do we best staff for this? And both in the acute setting as well as in the community settings, we've also shared best practices in this group of some of the work that I would say, particularly Ascension. It's done in meeting people outside of the acute settings through their telehealth spiritual services that they provide, but also someone like Mercy where they've utilized mobile devices. So it's been really a great think tank working group, collaborative group that shared how we can best elevate and ensure the human person is flourishing in the whole person care.
Antonina Olszewski (04:36):
I would add to that, and I think that that's a great summation. The only thing I would add to that is there's really been a larger conversation about ensuring that spiritual care remains relational and not transactional. And that's where it becomes interesting when you start talking about utilizing emerging technologies, which can add a lot of efficiency, but can also, if used in properly remove that relational component. And we want to ensure that spiritual care always remains about full presence and ensuring that the dignity and the value of the human person is respected. In other words, maintaining that relational component while better utilizing emerging technologies to provide and expand our services.
Brian Reardon (05:29):
And have you discussed different practical ways to ensure there is that support for the relational aspect of providing really good spiritual care? Has that come up on the conversations with the group?
Antonina Olszewski (05:40):
I think really looking at a bit of a change in the model of spiritual care provision from one time perhaps highly acute care focused to looking at the ways we can support those we serve across the care continuum and across a larger span of their life. So starting to look at the ways that spiritual care can be incorporated more regularly into the whole wellness efforts around health rather than being deployed where it should appropriately be infrequently is in moments of trauma or in moments of hyper distress.
Theresa Vithayathil Edmonson (06:21):
Yes. And in fact, to that point, I think antonina, one of the things that we've talked about in SCAC as well as I know in our different health systems is recognizing the need to provide that to our caregivers or our employees
(06:35):
So that it's not simply for our patients and their loved ones, but it is those that we work with that also are struggling with those issues of meaning and purpose and trying to strengthen those trusting relationships. And this is where I think it's the collaboration or partnership of both emerging technologies as well as basic spiritual health services, is that we do need the human person who develops that trusting relationship. But how we do, so this is where we do utilize emerging technology, whether it be through virtual health care that's provided. We do that and when it's also with partnering with others too, we're able to partner with vendors to say, Hey, how can we provide the support to our caregivers?
Antonina Olszewski (07:25):
And Theresa, you brought up something that I think begins to touch on how do we actually really have place a mark within Catholic health care on these emerging technologies? And I think with our vendors is a great place to start, but how do we engage with them about the way that this should present within Catholic health care? How do we actually make our mark by lifting up to vendors and to others, even to ourselves as we start to build more of these AI systems or generative AI components into our health care delivery that we have things that are critical for us as Catholic health care that we want to ensure, get embedded in what we're presenting to those we serve. So how are we integrating our own value perspective? How are we looking at the ethics and morals of what we're presenting to people? How are we starting to say ai, it might be fantastic in this space, but in order to use it in the space that Catholic health care wants to hold, how can we make a distinctive impression upon the technology itself that lifts our personal perspective and brings that into account when we're serving people?
Brian Reardon (08:41):
And this idea of guidelines for vendors or partners I think is an important one for your colleagues who work in spiritual care and maybe looking at, again, an app, maybe some kind of new enhanced way on the website to provide resources for spiritual care. Are there questions or issues that should be kind of forefront when you start those conversations with somebody who say, I've got an app for that? What would be some practical advice you'd give to your colleagues who are working through a business arrangement to again, provide a technology that enhances the work they do?
Theresa Vithayathil Edmonson (09:16):
It goes to the fundamental how's this making sure that a human person is flourishing, that dignity of the human person is going to be key. And so any kind of app kind of program can't lose the human person component to it. And so the suggested interventions or assessment tool for that matter, I think it's making sure is where it's gathering that data. And I think one of the things that Antonina and I have talked about in the past is making sure where's the biases of that data? Is the data coming from a particular source or is the research has been very limited? And so what is bringing up is bringing up stuff that may not apply to all populations. And again, one of the tenets of I would say Catholic social teaching is the dignity human person and making sure that we are always attentive to that.
Antonina Olszewski (10:16):
Obviously we have, everybody has their own biases and unconscious bias. And we know that one of the problematic features of the health care delivery system is that there's some internal bias built into it, and we're working hard to root that bias out and to address it. But that has proven to be more difficult than one might anticipate. For instance, when we look at disparities in maternal fetal health for African-American women in the health care delivery system, it is my hope always that utilizing an emerging technology can help to mitigate some of our unconscious bias and likewise, to mitigate some of the bias that currently exists in the health care system as it stands. That being said, the designers of AI also always have to be aware of their own biases and the biases that they're using when they're constructing AI models. So what are they putting in and how do we check that biases aren't being built into new technologies?
Brian Reardon (11:25):
So as I'm
Antonina Olszewski (11:25):
Listening to both, oh, I'm sorry. Are we supposed to let you ask us questions?
Brian Reardon (11:31):
No, what I wanted to do though, I think I wanted to bring this back to something because what you're both saying sounds like, and I'm pretty sure it is predictive modeling, which of course has been used in the delivery of care. So what I wanted to do is just spend a minute or so really digging a little deeper into this notion of if we're going to use predictive modeling to make referrals for spiritual care, for those who are working again on the human element of a model like that, what are some of the things you should consider or what are some of the inputs, I guess, in saying, yes, this particular patient or patient population would really benefit from spiritual care and maybe they don't know they would benefit. So how does that predictive modeling sort of in impractical ways, how does that look?
Antonina Olszewski (12:12):
So I'll jump in. And then Theresa, please, by all means, I think one of the things that the data is really showing us, and this is data that's coming out of a lot of research that's come out of Harvard and Duke and Emory for example. What the data is showing us is that particularly with chronic conditions and serious illness, there is an opportunity for spiritual care to lend a degree of intervention that can support coping mechanisms, resilience, joy and meaning, purpose, connection to goals. And I think one of the ways to look at that would be to just start to, for instance, look at populations by disease type. Now I'm very careful to say that people are not their disease, and that's where I think we need to be very intentional about maintaining the human relationship in using any of these models. But it gives us a place to start by saying, if we take a certain population and begin to look at the way we could provide data-driven interventions around this population, that's a way that we, I think can start to use predictive analytics and predictive AI to really target people who we know now through data would derive significant benefit from an intervention.
Theresa Vithayathil Edmonson (13:49):
I totally agree, and I think the only thing I would add with it Antonina said is I think because Catholic health care has a commitment to that whole person care, including spiritual care, we can also be on the forefront of this as we've always been, I would say, in Catholic health care. So that is where is it that we need to do more research? We can be leaders in this because we actually have the advantage of that commitment means that we do have some resources. And we could look at not only the disease types, which is an important part, but also what are populations that they could flourish if we're being able to provide this care because spiritual health services are key to that whole understanding, a whole person flourishing. So I do think the predictive models help us give us guide, but also could help us be on the forefront of other areas of research that we need to.
Antonina Olszewski (14:51):
I think one of the things that I continue to just see is Catholic health care has been predicated on creativity. And when I look back to our founders of all of our historical systems and the ways that they employed just initiative and creativity and quite frankly, just chutzpah to just get things done and to create solutions, I think we have inherited this legacy of being able to do that. And this is just a new avenue to do that in. And I hear a lot about the fear that people lift up in this space about AI and the use of ai and that it will drive us away from person-centered care. I actually really like to look at it in the opposite direction. And I believe, and I hold as paramount, that if we trust in God's love, we can utilize these technologies from a curiosity based perspective and not a fear-based perspective. And I think to do that, we really need to trust in our own values, our own moral basis, the virtues that we've been built upon, and build that outward in a way that embraces this new, the new and emerging space and really put our mark on it. So I see that movement away from fear in this space and towards innovative curiosity as the avenue where, as Theresa mentioned, Catholic health care really could be a leader in this field.
Theresa Vithayathil Edmonson (16:44):
The only thing I would just add is, I mean, it is rooted in our tradition, right? Because I mean, I think about the two phrases from scripture that I go back to is do not be afraid. And grace abounds always so much more. And so that's the excitement, right? Is that if we're not afraid and trusting grace, the human person is going to flourish.
Brian Reardon (17:09):
And I think all of those points really summarize what I'm hearing is an enthusiasm and excitement about how technology that I think a lot of folks are worried about the downside and the pitfalls. What you both did during this conversation is really provide some great examples of how technology can again, strengthen that relationship aspect of what it means to deliver high quality, compassionate care in our Catholic tradition. So I want to thank both of you for providing such great perspectives and really revealing how various technologies can have such a profound impact on the delivery of spiritual care. Thank you both. And again, we had with us Theresa Vithayathil Edmondson, she's vice president of spiritual health for Providence St. Joseph Health, and we had Antonina Olszewski, she's vice president of Spiritual Care and Mission integration for Ascension. Thank you again for being with us and sharing your perspectives.
Theresa Vithayathil Edmonson (18:07):
Thank you so much for having us. Thank you, Brian. It's been fun.
Brian Reardon (18:11):
And this has been another episode of Health Calls, the podcast of the Catholic Health Association. I'm your host, Brian Reardon. Our show's executive producer is Josh Matejka with additional production support from Yvonne Stroder. This episode was engineered by Brian Hartmann at Clayton Studios in St. Louis, Missouri. You can find Health Calls on all of your favorite podcast apps and services, as well as on our website at chausa.org/podcast. You can also find additional resources and materials that were referenced during this episode at that site. If you enjoy the show, please go ahead and give us that five star rating. We'd love to hear from you. And as always, thanks for listening.